I heard from a person in agriculture that it takes about a gallon of petroleum-based fertilizers to produce a gallon of ethanol for fuel (therefore not a "green" fuel). The 2nd problem is that diversion of corn for ethanol production is drawing grain from "protein production", which may increase prices of cattle, chicken, and pork because the animals will actually be smaller (bone to muscle ratio gets skewed to the bone side).
Interesting point of view.
I'm not a bubble-burster, but ethanol doesn't seem to be all it's cracked up to be.
Interesting point of view.
I'm not a bubble-burster, but ethanol doesn't seem to be all it's cracked up to be.
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SF Bay Area
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Re: the dark side of ethanol?
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 6:19 AMthere are numerous green fuels....but from what i've been reading, there are also numerous ways to make ethanol....
sugar, corn, even tree wood can be broken down with the right enzymes to make ethanol....
but you're right....i think there have even been riots in mexico over corn prices because of the ethanol craze.....corn prices are rising......at least i think....
i also think , though, that alot of it is political.....farmers will grow whatever they are getting subsidies for to grow......politicians like to plug ethanol, and they'll write bills for ethanol subsidies.....so as long as it's a political issue, things will move this way.....
but i'm not expert by any means.......
but i also don't think you need to use petroleum based fertilizers. . . -
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Re: the dark side of ethanol?
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 6:04 PMIm not an expert on the subject either, but im pretty sure that all biomass, any plant material can be turned into ethanol. You can get it from grass clippings, and otherwise yardwaste material. As long as its fresh anyway.
I live right in the middle of corn country, and for sure corn is the highest it has ever been because of the competetion for fuel. Most people here are happy, but we all know that it will seriously affect the price of livestock and meat, and that it is going to become more expensive to raise/feed cattle unless you can make your own feed. Things will continue this way, unless we can figure out a much better fuel system. On one hand there is food on the other there is fuel... and both will always be money. It has been hard for farmers here, many farms are being bought by hybrid seed corporations and also development. But this along with our windfarm will put some money into the area and i for one think things will get a little better.
It seems like prices are rising on everything anyway... -
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Re: the dark side of ethanol?
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 7:12 PMYeah, it sucks that plants wont grow without fertilizer, and strawberries can't grow without Methyl Bromide.
Have you considereed the amount of resources that go into growing a cow? Way more than a gallon of any type of bio fuel. Growing cow is one of the most wasteful things that we do, and to sustain it, we are going to have to kill off a few billion people.
Contrary to pop media opinion, MOST of our grain production is for growing meat, while people around the world are starving. So when you say ethanol production is removing food from the protiein stream, that is mainly because we rich fuckers like to eat burgers..
Mmmmm burgers Too bad I love them so. -
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Re: the dark side of ethanol?
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 7:13 PM'I heard from a person' ain't much of a source, can you back your statement with anyting?
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Unsu...
Re: the dark side of ethanol?
Fri, May 25, 2007 - 8:09 AMFirst off yes....growing cow takes way more fuel and grain than just growing crops for humans..
Also ethanol from corn is not a very good option. It is about 1-1. Sugar cane if I recall is around 5 gallons produced for every 1 gallon of petrol. However North American tall prairie grass is something like 100-1! Plus it is a native grass and has the added option of restoring and providing native habitat. They just about have the fermentation process nailed down also.
Here is something to realize. Back in the early day of the auto almost all cars and tractors burned ethanol because in rural areas especially, the closest gas station might be 300 miles away and farmers/ranchers made their own grain based ethanol (and probably a little extra for will..you know) . It was fairly common and until the Petroleum industry did their big hostile take over ethanol was looking to be the number one fuel source. -
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Re: the dark side of ethanol?
Fri, May 25, 2007 - 9:12 AMunfortunately any plant based fuel is in the same boat, the shit aint green!!!
we should convert garbage to fuel!! we should all just shit in our cars to drive them.
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Re: the dark side of ethanol?
Fri, May 25, 2007 - 9:54 AMAlso there is the huge energy hit for distilling the stuff. You have to boil off the alcohol from the mash mix and that takes a lot of energy.
In the end you actually lose energy overall by making ethanol from corn.
One of the best answers is being nearly completely ignored, methane/methanol.
Much more efficient than ethanol and can use almost any biomass from animal waste to grass clippings, waste paper, even dead humans, which comes back to what Dustin is saying.
Problem is, methane is cheap and efficient and anyone can do it at home with very little effort and that doesn't cater to big money/big industry.
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Re: the dark side of ethanol?
Mon, May 28, 2007 - 1:56 PMand gets low mpg!!
obvious solution: legalize hemp, grow any/everywhere with no help (well, shitting on the plant will prob help!).. and buy a diesel.. could find a few uses for parts of plant other than seeds, too!!
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Re: the dark side of ethanol?
Wed, June 20, 2007 - 3:06 PMwhen you require fertilizer, water and land to make fuel it will be more environmentally costly than gasoline -
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Re: the dark side of ethanol?
Wed, June 20, 2007 - 3:46 PMsee this stuff makes way to much sense therefore will never be adopted
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Re: the dark side of ethanol?
Thu, September 20, 2007 - 1:15 AM>when you require fertilizer, water and land to make fuel it will be more environmentally costly than gasoline
Not if you can do it in a way that intertwines the processes into a closed loop approach, but you won't get that with ethanol. -
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Re: the dark side of ethanol?
Fri, September 21, 2007 - 11:43 AMyou can feed a cow on natural prairie grasses in places where vegetables won't grow.....
fertilizer can also be poop from this same cow and the same prairie grasses -
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Re: the dark side of ethanol?
Fri, September 21, 2007 - 2:46 PMTrue enough, and you can also run that same dung through a methane digester before using it as fertilizer and actually improve it's organic viability as the bacteria infuses extra nitrogen into the mix as it breaks things down.
It also helps kill off weed seeds and pathogens.
It is a very reliable low tech method to extra energy without damaging the organic nutrients cycle.
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Re: the dark side of ethanol?
Sun, September 23, 2007 - 10:15 AMThere are lots of articles out now slamming ethanol. I would agree on the negative assessments...of starch based ethanol. Putting what could be food in the tank of your Yukon is immoral. But, cellulosic ethanol is another story. Fuel from lawn clippings and compost and other cellulosic matter. The technology is probably a few years off, (getting the enzymes for enzyme hydrolosis more affordable and working the clinks out of the whole process), but it's solid. Most likely, our cars and homes will be hybrids. When the next battery technology finally emerges, lithium ion will no longer be King Peanut of Shit Mountain. So, your car could be a lithium ion/cellulosic ethanol hybrid. Or, perhaps in ten years fuel cells will be practical. Hard to tell. Scientific advancement is a lot like artistic inspiration. A lot of the greatest advances are happy accidents... -
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Re: the dark side of ethanol?
Tue, September 25, 2007 - 9:08 AMlike i mentioned before, researchers are developing enzymes that can break down cellulosic wood fibers to create ethanol more efficiently than corn ethanol.......
you will be able to weed your garden and mow your lawn for fuel........
organic compost is actually one of the biggest factors in our waste stream......there's a lot of wasted food.......
i wonder how we can turn this wasted compost into viable fuel -
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Re: the dark side of ethanol?
Fri, September 28, 2007 - 3:47 AMIf you can compost it, you can make methane from it.
That includes wood and even roadkill.
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